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Over good food and good beer, you zenicx and joke with the waiter of the Restaurant Dubrovnik. A nice man from the Bosnian FA on an adjacent table stands you all a ih of beers, with a scarf chaser for Ains. The restaurant has become Wales Away in microcosm. Here, fifteen or so Welshmen eradicate pre-match tension by yelling at a different sport altogether. Australian victory, bar tab settled, you can put it off no longer. Through rain-sodden streets you make zebica short walk to the ground. Now, as you edge through the gloom, towards the away terrace, with neither in sight nor fkck hand, it hits you.
This Wo could be it. You remember the anthems, the huge Bosnian flag and the mutual applause. He had a fck saved. Begovic stands up with the ball in his arms, the referee blows his whistle. Fifteen minutes into a hitherto unremarkable second half all innocence is shattered by a PA announcement. Wantd Bosnian fans to your right let out a mighty aants and then, as groups huddle round rain-spattered phone screens, in fits and starts, you begin cheering too. Hundreds of miles away your fate is being decided for you; Cyprus are winning. Bosnia lead, and their fans celebrate wildly; in the ground the noise is deafening, outside a man zennica from a tower block, leans out of his living room window and lights a bright red flare.
By now, the murmurs from those checking phones are as important as the action on the pitch. Nerves have been shredded. None of it matters; Cyprus are ahead once again — it scrolls across the scoreboard. The away section celebrates once ij, whilst the ball sits innocuously in midfield. Only this time the hope which normally kills you, remains. Arms flail; umbrellas twirl, hands point into the night sky. And then, on the zeica down in front of you news slowly filters through. The players rush and dive towards you; fans scale the fence in joy, in a want to be even more part of all this. Eventually, and reluctantly, you are edged out of the stadium. At the back of the terrace one Wales fan turns and faces the field, before lighting a cigar the size of a cricket stump.
A local camera crew marvel at the scenes; men zenicx should know better — grizzled and world-weary, dads and professionals, openly weeping and hugging. For once, it actually is all about the football. As the residents of the tower blocks lean out their windows to applaud and congratulate you, you pick your Wbo through the police lines and round the Wno streets to a bar beside the stadium. They are happy for themselves, they are happy for you. It seems a fair trade-off. You jump and sing with the Bosnians in the bar and out in the street.
Ains is hoisted to the ceiling, Ade has his first beer zeniica a decade. Viva Gareth Bale, viva the barman, viva Bosnia. There can and only ever will be one night like this. I am of reasoned enough mind to know that this is only football. I can lucidly state that Wales do not mean more to me than my family, or my girlfriend. And yet, I am fool enough to romance and escapism for all this to really and emphatically matter. To achieve that, to be there for it, to live it, it is the fulfilment of a lifelong dream. It is the greatest night of my life. Sunday 11 October You wake with the hangover from heaven.
At breakfast it is handshakes and smiles all round. Taxis arrive and remove their Zenica lights before ferrying you back to Sarajevo, where the people you met in that Serbian mini-bus wait at the airport go their separate ways; to London, to Cardiff, to Brno, via Zagreb, Vienna and more. His function and his authorities were within 16 the framework of the work that he did, and that was stipulated by the law. I'm not familiar with the law. I apologise, but this is 18 what I can say because this is as much as I know. His authorities stemmed 19 from the law that provided him with that authority.
Before we continue, may I ask the attention, both of 22 you, Mr. Tieger, page 14, lines 12 to 18, the answer 23 starts with: If you would understand it in different way, it should be 4 clarified with the witness. If that's your common understanding, then we 5 can proceed. That's my understanding, Your Honour, and I don't 7 see Mr. Tieger -- 8 MR. Then we can proceed. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, he finished, and then I raised -- 14 MR. I'm obliged, Your Honour. Hrvacanin, at the time of the Banja Luka, Republika 16 Srpska, meeting on the 12th of May,what -- can you say what degree 17 of either satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among you and your 18 other active colleagues in the SDS about the formulation of goals for the 19 party?
At that meeting we did not discuss the goals of the 21 party. Those were a parliamentary Assembly meeting attended by the 22 deputies, if we are referring to the 12th of May, Hrvacanin, I'm really focussing on the date that the -- 24 the time of mid-May So just to put a date on it and asking you 25 whether at that time, mid-Maywhether you can say what level of Page 1 satisfaction or dissatisfaction there was among active members of the SDS 2 about the formulation of goals of the SDS? At that Assembly meeting there were no SDS goals. The only thing 4 that happened was the election of President Karadzic.
There were no other 5 goals mentioned as far as I know. Were you personally, as a member of the SDS at that time, 7 satisfied that the party's goals were sufficiently clear? I would not have been a member of that party had 9 I not been satisfied. Just going back to Zenica. You, of course, had left as you told 11 Their Honours. But did you -- in the period as you were leaving and after 12 you left Zenica at the end of Februarydid you come into any sort of 13 conflict with your former friends and colleagues in Zenica? I am not fond of conflict. I am that kind of person.
Was there any type of disagreement about your activities with 17 anybody in Zenica at that time? They didn't like me being in the SDS. My colleague 20 Alic was a member of the SDA. I was his boss, the head of his service. I was not in conflict with anybody. Was any action taken by anybody in Zenica that had a bearing on 25 your own reputation? Yes, of course, that did happen. When I left Zenica, some people 2 did not like the fact that I had saved my hide and that I'm still alive 3 today. There were plans for my assassination. Then they started telling 4 really bad things about me. One of them was that I had given the list of 5 SDS members and of all Serbs to the Muslims, and that based on those 6 lists, the Muslims went on to arrest the Serbs and incarcerate them in the 7 KP Dom Zenica where they were later on ill-treated, starved to death.
At 8 one point in time, there were over such people. Milan Mitrovic 9 wrote a book about that, describing the hardships of Serbs in Central 10 Bosnia. And there was also a serial in Glas Srpski a newspaper published 11 in Banja Luka during the communist times. The name of that paper was only 12 Glas, not Glas Srpski. Well, since I wasn't killed by the Muslims, the 13 Serbs wanted to be the end of me because I had betrayed them. I had a lot 14 of problems with that. Hrvacanin, first of all, who was it who said that you had 16 given lists of SDS members to the Muslims?
This was a story I heard. Stojan Zivanovic, 18 who is a professor at the school of philosophy in Banja Luka and who is a 19 native of Zenica told me once the war was over -- I was in Zenica and I 20 asked the people whether you had provided the Muslims with some lists. And then he said to them: But there are stories to 22 that effect. I don't know who spread those stories, but I know that that 23 story came from Zenica with every refugee that arrived in the territory of 24 Banja Luka. Hrvacanin, first of all when you were in Zenica did you in Page 1 fact have access to lists of SDS members?
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No, I did not have access to SDS members. This was done by the 3 technical service and the secretary. I never looked at the list of SDS 4 members. I personally believe that this was a private matter of every 5 individual. An affiliation to a party is a private thing. Nobody should 6 know that, and I didn't know who members of the SDS were. I knew about 7 some of my associates, the inner circle of my associates, if they were 8 members of the SDS. Was there any truth in any suggestion that you had supplied 10 information about SDS membership in any way to Muslims? The chief 12 administrator of my institution knew because I had told him that I could 13 no longer bear the physical threats.
I asked him for an unpaid leave of 14 two months, and then if I could not find a job and a livelihood in Banja 15 Luka, I volunteered to come back to Zenica. He was astonished when he 16 heard that I was leaving. And he said to me: What is the matter with 17 you? You can't leave here.
The man himself guck in nosy, and delights in curating the bad boys that fill the market; him captaining Georgi Hagi, him cheating with Michel Platini. Entertain, perhaps that was a -- not a vulnerable example.
We can protect you. I don't want to lose you 18 as a professional. Unfortunately, I left awnts husband, stayed there during 19 those two months, and he told me that I should not come back, that I 20 should stay where I was at all costs. Your Honour, I Wh no further questions for 23 Mrs. Tieger, we are -- I wouldn't say close to the time Page 1 where we usually have a break since we had a late start. Would you 2 nevertheless prefer to have the break now and then start your 3 cross-examination? Or would waants rather start now and have a break to stop 4 in, let's say, approximately 15 minutes.
I would prefer the break initially, Your Honour, 6 particularly if we're going to address some procedural matters. That seems to make more sense. Then before we have a break, I have one 10 additional zenida directly related to questions about SDS membership. There were probably over 2 or 14 3. Is this to say that those who participated in the 16 plebiscite were all SDS members? How could I see on those -- on the plebiscite 20 list, which I think is Who wants to fuck in zenica in evidence as far as Zenica is concerned -- is 21 it indicated that someone is an SDS member awnts -- because you say: So how could I 24 read that from that list? Is it indicated, or is there any other way to 25 find out about SDS membership of those who participated in the plebiscite?
This want not indicated in 2 any way. God forbid that anybody should be marked as an SDS member if 3 they participated in the plebiscite. The Muslims and Zfnica who wanted to 4 live in zenicz joint state participated senica the plebiscite as well, not only 5 Serbs. But when I say that fuuck were over 3. So you say there were 2 or 3. I only 9 have a photo from the founding Assembly of the SDS, and you can tell by 10 the photo that there were over a thousand people there. Now, we have over a thousand and we have 2 to 12 3. Zneica just trying to find out how many members there approximately 13 were and what your source of knowledge is.
When you mention 2 to 3. Those people were members of the SDS. And if you take into account the number of the population 20 of those local communes, if I do the maths I can tell you that there were 21 about 3. Now you're explaining to me how the membership 23 was spread over the town and some villages. But how would you know that 24 in town there would be less SDS members and in the villages there would be 25 more? But were all Serbs SDS members? How would you know the number of SDS members? Were 5 they registered somewhere, either in the villages or in the town?
I mean 6 if you say "they were not all members," how would you know how many of 7 them were members? So membership was registered, was processed through 15 Zenica to Sarajevo, and IDs being sent back. And that's the source of 16 your knowledge of some 2 to 3. Is that a 17 correct understanding? Thank you for that answer. The Chamber intended to finalise its own discussions 25 on the procedural matters during this break. We couldn't find the time, Page 1 however, so that is postponed most likely until after the next break. Tieger, are you ready to cross-examine Mrs. In terms of the finalisation of 4 the procedural matters, perhaps I -- I think I understood them to include 5 issues related to the time limits of 65 ter summaries.
As a matter of fact, we'd prefer you to do that after 9 the next break or even tomorrow -- no, we're not sitting tomorrow, I 10 think. But at the earliest occasion. We understood that the Prosecution 11 had quite some concerns about the timing of providing 65 ter summaries, 12 and that's not unnoticed. Your Honour, can I say that -- perhaps this is what 14 we have in mind now Your Honour's reference to tomorrow. At the same time the Judges 18 need some time to discuss these kind of matters also to form its own 19 preliminary opinion, just perhaps looking at what happened to be certain 20 about what the facts are at this moment before we hear the parties because 21 we could ask specific questions better if we are prepared as well.
Your Honour, may -- I entirely understand that. We will try to see whether we could deal with 25 it today. If not, we'll see. Page 1 MR. Your Honour, could it be this way, if it's not 2 inconvenient for Your Honour. If it's not possible to be dealt with 3 today, could it be dealt with on Friday? Nothing will change this week, so -- 5 MR. If we can't deal with it today you would prefer to 7 deal with it yourself and then preferably on Friday? That's on the record. Thank you very much. I would simply indicate that Mr. Stewart and I have 12 had a preliminary opportunity to discuss generally the nature of the 13 Prosecution's concerned and its potential impact on the schedule.
Of course, if Mr. Stewart could take away your 16 concerns or at least diminish them to such a level that you don't have to 17 bother the Chamber with it any more, then, of course, that would be 18 preferred. But -- 19 MR. I wish that was the case. I was simply -- 20 MR. I try not to aggravate them, Your Honour, that's 21 probably my ambition some of the time. Yes, the level of ambition is not something -- 23 MR. I'm doing what I can, Your Honour. Yes, and you're still smiling. Your Honour, I simply wanted to indicate to 2 Mr. Stewart, that those concerns were going to be raised. The other matter, by the way, would be the pending 4 admission of exhibits.
There are lots of them, some waiting for 5 translation. We would like to categorise them, briefly see what we have, 6 and to make arrangements for solution of this problem so that we -- they 7 would not be pending forever. Also because the Chamber can't proceed if 8 we don't have translations, if we do not know what is in evidence, 9 because, as you'll understood, some digestion of the evidence takes place 10 outside of this courtroom. Hrvacanin, you'll now be cross-examined by 14 Mr.
Tieger, who is counsel for the Prosecution. Tieger, you may proceed. Thank you very much, Your Honour. You mentioned, and I believe that's found at page 35 of the 23 LiveNote of the testimony, that's for the benefit of Defence counsel and 24 the Court, that you thought you were in Sarajevo on the 19th, 20th, and 25 21st of December in connection with the Assembly session you discussed and Page 1 the meeting that took place in the Holiday Inn that you mentioned 2 thereafter. Can you tell us 5 what that reference was to, what specific dates you were referring to? I was in Sarajevo for three days. I was there on the 19th, the 7 20th, and the 21st. And did you customarily arrive in Sarajevo or wherever the site of 9 an Assembly session was a day or two in advance of that session?
Tieger, could you please speak closer to the 11 microphone, because we can't hear you. And I came a daily earlier 14 because I had things to do at the dental faculty of the university of 15 Sarajevo. You also explained to the Court that you did not know about any 18 similar-size meeting that took place in December of and did not 19 believe that could have been such a meeting. That was at page 34 -- 44 of 20 the LiveNote, I believe. Yes, that's what I'm saying now, too. So as far as you're concerned, there was no meeting other than the 23 Assembly session and the spontaneous meeting you testified about of 24 Bosnian Serb officials scheduled for the 19th, 20th, or 21st of December?
Page 1 Q. And by the same token, if there was one that had been scheduled, 2 you don't know anything about that? I should know if one had been planned, but I don't know anything 4 about a planned meeting. Now, this Court has had the opportunity to receive the audio and 6 transcript of a telephone conversation involving Dr. Karadzic on the 19th 7 of December,in which Dr. Karadzic said, and if -- 8 MR. This is, Your Honour, P67 intercept, tab I don't 9 know if it's part of the bundle, but it can be distributed now or later as 10 Court wishes or as counsel wishes.
As I say it is in evidence at P67 11 intercept, tab On that occasion, Mrs. I'll introduce this Friday. I'll introduce a 14 second-degree state of emergency, and I'll teach everyone who fucks around 15 a fucking lesson. Novakovic on the other end said: It's our Assembly session here on 19 Saturday. Hrvacanin, having checked the calendar for 21I can tell you the 21st of December was a Saturday, the 20th was a 22 Friday. Karadzic continued in the conversation at a slightly 24 later point after saying, as Mr. You have it there about how -- who needs to 3 come and so" -- and Mr.
Karadzic would introduce this state of 9 emergency? That is correct, that I didn't know anything about this. But by 11 your leave, Your Honours, there is something strange about this. Karadzic does not swear at all when he speaks, whereas many swear 13 words were used in this passage. I don't want to express any doubts or 14 suspicions, but perhaps the interpreters have misinterpreted this because 15 this is very bad behaviour, all this swearing. Hrvacanin, I Who wants to fuck in zenica agree with you that swearing 19 is not what one would expect from civilised persons, but the Chamber is in 20 a position, in view of the many intercepts we have listened to, to form 21 its opinion on whether swearing of -- by the person identified in these 22 telephone conversations as Mr.
Karadzic, whether that is exceptional or 23 not. Hrvacanin, the diary kept by Dr. Karadzic, chef 2 de cabinet, reflects a notation by what appears to be a meeting of the 3 Main Board at on December 20th,and, again, which is Friday. In the calendar, meeting of 5 Main Board, and Main Board on the page below. It is P65 Treanor 5, tab 8 65, and P, Hanson tab Hrvacanin, I take it from what you've told us earlier 10 that you don't know anything about this reference to a Main Board 11 gathering at on December 20th,the day before the Assembly 12 session was held? I don't know anything about this. Now, yesterday you were shown the document that is -- has been 15 called Variant A and B, the instructions of December and indicated 16 you had never seen that.
When you were in -- well, in Sarajevo the 19th, 17 20th, and 21st, did Dr. Krajisnik issue anything requiring 18 implementation? As far as I can remember - and that's what I said yesterday - no. Krajisnik were distributing any kind of 21 material at that session. Now, whether somebody else was, I really don't 22 know. Now directing the Court's attention to P Hanson 24 tab Karadzic said to Mr. Krajisnik in a Page 1 telephone conversation of 21 December Now, you told the Court that you wanted to attend the session that 6 took place, the Assembly session that took place in late December because 7 there were some items on the agenda that you felt were important.
And you 8 said: Were those items or issues important enough to you so that you 12 spoke at the Assembly about them? We'll turn to that in a moment, but I wanted first to discuss with 15 you the reason you gave for the proposal to have a spontaneous meeting 16 after the Assembly ended at approximately And I 17 believe you explained that the delegates wanted to discuss the memorandum 18 regarding independence and didn't want to do so in the blue hall for fear 19 of being overheard. I think you in fact mentioned that Serbs had loud 20 voices. Is that essentially correct? Yes, that is correct. So I take it then that there was a reluctance to discuss it before 23 the group had adjourned to the Holiday Inn, and the group members, the 24 Assembly members, refrained from doing so until they had safely gathered 25 at the Holiday Inn for the spontaneous meeting.
Is that essentially Page 2 A. Apart from the issues of emblems and anthems, do you recall what 4 was discussed at the Assembly session that took place, according to you, 5 on or about December 20th, ? I think that most of it focussed on the coat of arms and the 7 anthem. And I also think that independent MPs joined the Serb Assembly, 8 but please do allow for the possibility that I do not remember everything. I do indeed, ma'am. Well, I'm sure it won't surprise you to learn 10 that records were kept of the Assembly sessions, and I've had an 11 opportunity to look at the record of the Assembly session that was held on 12 December 21st, Saturday, And the first item on the agenda, 13 Mrs.
Hrvacanin, was in fact the declaration on the guidelines for 14 recognition of new states by the council of ministers of the European 15 Community. And three speakers spoke about that right away: Buha at page 3. He complained about this declaration by the European 17 community, and in doing so referred to the illegal memorandum and platform 18 adopted against the will of the Serbian people. He referred to a text that was submitted 20 to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 21 which stated flatly: Opposition to Bosnia and Herzegovina submitting an 22 application for independence to the European Community.
Simovic spoke, and he indicated that the position of 24 the Bosnian Serb authorities was expressed in a statement entitled "Black 25 Friday for Bosnia and Herzegovina. I do recall what you just said, Mr. I have no reason 14 to doubt it. I believe that all of it is true, but my memory doesn't 15 serve me very well now. I know for sure that it was said that we should 16 go to the Holiday Inn and have lunch there and, if necessary, we'll talk 17 over lunch. I stand by the statement I made yesterday. Well, perhaps in light of what I've just read to you, it wasn't 19 necessary to discuss the position on the memorandum but maybe some other 20 matters.
So let me ask you first whether you recall any discussion at the 21 Assembly session about what the Bosnian Serbs would do in response to 22 their opposition to the memorandum and to the effort by the Bosnian 23 government to seek independence? No, I do not recall that. Well, if I may, let me indicate a few speakers at that session and Page 1 what they said. First of all, do you recall anyone saying: Dukic said that at page 19 of the English transcript. Koljevic of page 44 of the English transcript. Karadzic at page Zekic at page The deputy who was killed, Mr. Do you recall anyone saying that: As far as I know, no. Hrvacanin, do you recall someone saying that: Vukic who said that, and his reference to "nations 7 that had been subsequently created," you understand as a reference, I 8 presume, to the fact that the Muslims did not become a "narod," a nation 9 until ?
They were a narod, a people, but they were recognised as a 11 nation inbut they were there as a people, yes. Thank you for that clarification. But that's how you understand 13 that reference, I take it. I see you nodding your 14 head "yes. Do you recall that, 19 Mrs. In any event, after discussing 22 all of this at the Assembly session, according to you the assembled 23 representatives decided that there was a need for some more secure place 24 to continue the discussion. Well, after discussing the opposition to the memorandum and after 2 discussing the response and proposed response to the memorandum and the 3 attempt by the Bosnian authorities to seek sovereignty and independence, 4 was there anything left for the gathered representatives to discuss, other 5 than how to prepare to do these things, that is to create new borders, to 6 homogenise the population, and to make the Muslims disappear, as Dr.
Vukic 7 had said and as Dr. It's a very ugly thing even to hear something like that, that 9 somebody should disappear. I think that the aspiration of the Serb people 10 was to live in Yugoslavia. That was a recognised state of all nations, 11 Muslims, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, all of those who lived there. I 12 never heard of any such idea or any such story, that the Serbs should make 13 a border of their own, except that Bosnia and Herzegovina should be within 14 the framework of Yugoslavia. That is why the Serbs asked for the 15 plebiscite, not like the referendum of the Muslims and the Croats to 16 recognise independence. I think that that is the only example of 17 something like this happening through a referendum, so I'm not aware of 18 this, Mr.
By the way, Mrs. Hrvacanin, I also recall that you said during 20 your testimony when you were being questioned by Mr. Stewart that 21 Dr. Karadzic was not at the Assembly session in -- that you described, in 22 December of ? Yes, that is correct that I said that. I don't remember that he 24 was there, but then you say he was there. I don't remember though. Well, in fact Dr. Karadzic spoke four times at some length from Page 1 pages 19 to 21, from pages 37 to 42, again at page 48 and 49 of an English 2 transcription of the session which was a total of 50 pages.
First of all, you said that the Assembly 5 meeting you attended on December 19th, 20th, or 21st, which I think you 6 identified today as being on the 20th, went from around I think that's right. I think that's what I said. It's been 13 11 years. Allow for the possibility that I may not remember some things. And you said that it: I think that is what it was called because the 15 chairs were blue, that the general decor was in blue hues, so I think 16 that's the name of the room, yes. Hrvacanin, the records of the Assembly session held 18 on December 21st,reflect that it did not begin at And the records further reveal that it was not held in the 21 blue hall or blue room, but in the Holiday Inn hotel.
And the record 22 further indicates, Mrs. Hrvacanin, that anthems and coats of arms or 23 emblems were neither on the agenda of the meeting 21 December nor 24 discussed. You're welcome to see the records of that, but if you accept 25 that, we can move forward. I have no reason not to believe you, but I don't know of Assembly 2 meetings being held at all at the Holiday Inn. Well, in fact, Mrs. Hrvacanin there was an Assembly meeting that 4 was held at the Holiday Inn, at least one that I'm about to describe -- 5 oh, I'm sorry, pardon me. Let me rephrase that. And further -- 10 A. Hrvacanin, that was not the meeting of 21 December, not the Assembly 14 session of 21 December, ; that was the Assembly session held on 15 15 Februarythe seventh session of the Assembly.
Hrvacanin, in light of all that, do you agree that the 17 meeting -- the Assembly session you were talking about was not held in 18 December, December 20th or December 21st, as the record in fact indicates, 19 but was held in mid-February ? Now that you've said it in this hall, in this room, yes. And any spontaneous meeting that took place after the session that 22 you've described at which no documents were distributed would have taken 23 place in the afternoon of February 15th, ? That follows logically, I 24 take it?
As long as we're on the subject of Assembly sessions, perhaps this 2 is a good opportunity to ask you a few questions about the Assembly 3 session on the 12th of May,in Banja Luka. That's the session that 4 you were asked about earlier this afternoon. And I think you told the 5 Court that what you remembered about that particular Assembly session was 6 that Dr. Karadzic became a member of the Presidency? Stewart asked you a few questions about the six strategic 9 objectives or goals, and you said that although there was -- essentially, 10 although there was talk about it in the media, that you didn't know 11 anything about it and had never heard anything directly about the six 12 strategic objectives or goals?
And then he subsequently asked some questions about goals 15 discussed at the Assembly session of 12 Mayand again you said the 16 only thing that happened was the election of Dr. And you 17 said: I attended those sessions, but I wasn't there all the time. I 19 would sometimes leave the room. However, this doesn't justify me not 20 knowing what happened at those sessions. Still, I can tell you what I 21 really remember and what I told you is the truth. And if I don't remember 22 something, then obviously I can't talk about it. So are you now saying that you're not sure what was discussed at 24 that session or that you're sure that nothing significant, other than 25 Dr.
Karadzic's becoming a member of the Presidency, happened at that Page 1 session and particularly no discussion of strategic goals? What you said is certain. Karadzic was appointed president. This was 4 very important because he was also the leader of the party.
As for the 5 strategic goals, I don't know anything about those. If this -- whether 6 this was important, whether this was at all discussed, I don't know. And znica I'm telling you the truth. Well, as you pointed out, it certainly happens that people step 9 away from a meeting for a short time for a bathroom break or for a cup of 10 coffee, and I guess everyone understands that. But at this particular 11 meeting, Mrs. Hrvacanin, the strategic goals were discussed or mentioned, 12 I believe, a total of ten times.